a young pakistani doctor blogs...
Sunday, June 25, 2006
  Understanding Islam 2, Ayesha's age at marriage
Here is issue that bothered me a lot. I heard many Muslims defend the idea that Ayesha (ra) was 9 years old at the time of marriage or consummation of the marriage. When I read this answer on the understanding-Islam site, it just blew me away. This answer was written in 1998. Over the years (since questions from people are routinely accepted at the site) there have been a series of rebuttal questions to this original answer, forming a long chain of animated discussions on the subject. The original question/answer is here , which is followed up by this, then this, this, this, this, and finally the last answer written on the issue to date here.

Title:
What was Ayesha's (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage to the Prophet (pbuh)?

Question:

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?
It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.

Answer:
To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:
  1. Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

  2. It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy-one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.

  3. Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).

  4. Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302).

  5. According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an, was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not even only an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why should we not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

  6. According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.

  7. According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

  8. Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

  9. According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam.

  10. Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

  11. According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

  12. According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.
These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.
 
Comments:
The marriage between Ayesha(RA) and Muhammad(SAW) was not like other marriages as you also mentioned.The purpose of the marriage was to train ayesha(RA) for the future Islamic empire by giving her training of hadiths and other Islamic issues.One could say that Ayesha(RA) could visit Prophet's Home anytime but if it was happened then again oponents could comeup with statment like Muhammad(SAW) godforbid doesnt mind to spend time with a growing girl.The only way to acomplish thsi was legal marriage which took place.Ayeshah(RA) got married at age of six and She came to Prophet(SAW)'s house at age of 9.

there is no evidence by hadiths or other reference about physical relation between Ayeshah(RA) and Muhammad(SAW) and we also dont hear about any offspring of the prophet(SAW) from Ayesha.

Even if there would be then it was not going to be unscientific and unusual anyway,neither Muhammad(SAW) could be declared as pedophile anyway because according to science a girl is considered *valid* for sex when she reaches to puberty.

In ancient arabia women used to reach pubery at age betwen 9 and 12 and could carry baby at age of 60s.

Even in today's world,girls reachingto puberty at age of 10 and mostly it happens in hot regions.In US itself every state have different age of marraige and its all due to puberty.

I hope this is enough to clarify many things.You should be very careful while visint sites which appear to be Islamic.If you wouldhave already shaken belief then there are chances that you go out of track.

Best of luck in eploring Islam:)
 
My God Adnan, did you even read a single word of the post? Or did you just drop in to educate an "ignorant" muslim like myself?

Open your eyes man... consider what you're saying:

"according to science a girl is considered *valid* for sex when she reaches to puberty."

I hope to God you don't have a little sister.

...Or a daughter for that matter.

Maybe when you have either you'll realise how perverted your statement is.

"Even in today's world,girls reachingto puberty at age of 10 and mostly it happens in hot regions"

Reaching puberty and being ready mentally for marriage are two totally different things.

It's sad that I even have to make that statement because it should be glaringly obvious to you already - from your profile its says your 29 years old. After spending 29 years on this planet, do you believe the physiological ability to have sex equates to the moral acceptability of having sex with a 9 year old girl?

"I hope this is enough to clarify many things."

Your comment has only depressed me. It demonstrates how otherwise well-educated muslims have closed their eyes to reason and logic (and in this case, any sense of decency)when it comes to their religion, blindly following the dogma that society drums into their brains without question.

A good muslim is not someone who doesn't question. The truth can stand up for itself. It doesn't need the dumbing down of society to retain validity.

And next time, do me the courtsey of actually reading the post in full before deciding to share your penetrating insights into pedophilic practices with us.
 
Adnan your little comment disgusted me..seriously. My GOD! VALID FOR SEX..what are women??? OBJECTS??? Holy! Marriage has to do with a lot more than puberty for the love of God!

I agree Dr. Pak..hopefully no sisters or daughters or bless their hearts!
 
I have to say that Adnan didn't really read or maybe just didn't get the point. I think this was a good post--it gives some good points to consider. I think that when one questions what they are reading or being taught it only makes you a better person. Why go thru life blindly accepting everything you are told, right?
 
I loved your thoughts on this,as for Adnan he is one of those who only reads what he wants to , and will never get the whole picture.
 
It's sad how convoluted logic and blind acceptance of dogma has pervaded the muslim mindset. Many Muslims seem afraid of scrutinizing their religion carefully. But then again, I don't blame them really, because where would they go for answers?

The majority of our islamic "scholars" are useless. The argument that Adnan uses is in all liklihood that opinion of a grim faced, long-beared greasy mullah who can't wait to marry his own daughters off as soon as they become "valid", as Adnan puts it. All that's left to sustain faith in the face of troubling issues such as marriage to a very young girl is twisted logic.

What is more disturbing though is when good evidence and arguments against such an issue are not even purused and knee jerk reactions are substituted for independant thought processes.

Like I said in a recent post, the problem isn't just that Muslims don't know about the 'real' islam, it's that they don't care, or if they do care, they don't think.
 
Assalamu Aleikum wa Rahmatulahi wa Barakatuhu,

I cannot comment on this as I am not well versed on the hadith and all of its transmitters (it's a difficult science, I'm told). However, I have often wondered how they "figured out" her age given how the Arabs until this day still don't know their birthdays.

A good friend of mine's husband doesn't even know how old he is, so the family had to more or less guess for legal papers when he left Saudi.

My husband's father deals with Saudi bedouins (he's an M.D.) when he asks his patients how old their father is, they are usually off by about 20 years (saying their dad is 100 when he is actually about 60). The older beduoins are very vague about their ages.

Something to think about

I get really upset when people call Muslims "pedophiles". Even more upset when they call the prophet (SAWS) the same.

I always wondered how they figured Aisha'a age, and Khadijah's age even. Khadijah (RA) was supposed to have the first of her children with the prophet(SAWS) when she was 40. Around that time women usually stop having children.

Also, the years are calculated differently using a lunar vs. a solar calendar, so that's another thing to think about.

It doesn't bother me because Aisha (RA) married the prophet (SAWS) willingly. But as to the age, I have been told, that her age was unclear.

I think if you got your information from valid sources, hadith, etc. it should only serve to show the beauty of our deen, not decrease it.

I for one, would love to see more scholars in Islam to draw from and to teach all Muslims and non-Muslims.

Brother Adnan, regardless of your statements (which I con't get into due to my own ignorance of the subject). A woman cannot be married unless she gives her own permission for it. Period. I'm sure you can draw from some scholars who say elsewise but it is clear that you cannot marry a woman without her consent.

So I say, if you believe that a 9 year can be married, then you must believe her testimony in court is allowed. Period.

Her testimony in the masjid is allowed.

She is allowed to own property and dispose of it without her father's permission, so on and so forth- at 9 year of age.

You can't just take things out of context and apply them when you want. They need to be applied in general.

So if a 9 year old can be married, she has a right to stand up in an Islamic court or in the masjid and claim her rights in the society in the same fashion that a brother in Islam would do.

I'm not saying that any of the hadith that you guys are stating are fabricated because I don't know, but age doesn't mean anything in marriage. Consent is what's important. You can't enter into a contract if you are under puberty. Period.
 
That is some research you did :)
 
PS: I wouldn't care if you said was true or not. All I know is that it is wrong.

Alright, sure they reached puberty in Arabia in earlier age, agreed. I have no facts against it so I have to agree. But really, would you marry someone who would say yes without ever questioning the consequences.

Prophet (PBUH) did it, (if true) may be to prove a point but that doesn't mean you have to ruin poor child's life. Atleast let her reach the stage where she can make concious decisions and know that saying something would affect the life.
 
Musulmana: that's a nice way of looking at it. I hadn't thought of that before.

Say what: Your inner voice tells you that it's wrong. It's good you haven't quelled that voice.

This is not my own research, this is the work of Moiz Amjad over at www.understanding-islam.org. I certainly don't have the knowledge to draft something like this. As stated, this answer was followed up by more questions on the matter, all of which I gave the links to in the original post.

This matter is relevant today for several reasons. Firstly because of the widespread belief that Ayesha (ra) was only 9 when married, girls in Pakistani society, in the poor rural areas, are married off very young as well. People think the hadeeth gives them the allowence marry their 9-10 year old daughters off.

It's also important because it shows how sound research and logic applied to religion can go a long way. This sort of critical thinking is what's needed if we're to revert back en masse to Islam in the beautiful form that it was original revealed it.
 
firt of all I am very pleased how all self-claim educated people offending me by talking nonsense.Advising me to get educated while deminstrating the utter nonsense towards me


DrPak:calm down kid.It seems you have learnt nothing in your medical college.


First of all,do I sound a person who favors sexual intercourse with kids?If yes then all of you are igorant souls.

Doctor You said:

My God Adnan, did you even read a single word of Post


i dont need to because the article you linked was not something new for me.All i got that you were confused about that marriage.


I hope to God you don't have a little sister.


Again I have doubt to your medical knowledge skills.I am not a medical student but atleast I do have an idea when a girl is considered "valid" for sex.

Just a simple question to you and everyone else who is yelling at me.
Just answer my few questions.

1)How do you define a girl is able for marriage(or for sex)?how do you set standard.is there any medical book that girl MUST NOT get married before cerain age?

2)Why every state of most of US states doesnt have a SAME AGE restriction for sex(or marriage).Make a research on net and you will find that many of US states allow marriage at age of 16 while others allow 17 ot 18?why is that.Go and figure it out.

You further said:

Reaching puberty and being ready mentally for marriage are two totally different things.


Again your medical knowlede lack here.You said Women should be ready for marriage mentally.If that is the case my son,What if a woman whose physical age is 23 is NOT willing to marry.Will you say she is not _technically_/_medically_ valid for marriage becasue she DOESNT WANT to marry?Make some sense dude.

Nobody is talking about forcing some woman for marriage.In general you cant force woman of ANY age to marry unless she is ready but regardless of her answer.Her body chemistry doesn't depend on her "Yes" or "No"

if i say "I dont want to marry" .Will it change the fact that I am medically eligible to marry some woman or have sex?

Doctor i am seriously disappointed by your medical knowledge.More on that the way you tried [an unseccessful attempt I must say] to offend me showed enough how cultured you are.




do you believe the physiological ability to have sex equates to the moral acceptability of having sex with a 9 year old girl?


Again your knowledge lack here.You need to provide me proof where it mentions that ALL WOMAN ON EARTH have equal attributes for reaching to adult condition or puberty.

I know few ladies made comment here.Won't they know that their first mensturation cycle would not be started at same AGE(specific date,time and month) like their sisters and friends.Isn't it true? Those who offending me should consult lady doctor about the fact but not this doctor since he lacks big time in his field(I wonder whether hes a medical doctor?).


For the rest of crap of your doctor I would advise you to learn manners while arguing and debating.Show tolerence to oponents otherwise nnoe would even like to see you again(i am being nice and not using hard language for you.Be thanful to me).


pedophilic practices


What is your definition of phedophile? I am really intrested to know.

Do show your _education skills_ in your next post.I would love to hear ya;)



And remember you HAVE TO answer the questions i asked you.

BTW:do you or your belief says that Muhammad(SAW) was a pedophile?Doa nswer em this.

@Sobia:Kid calm down.Get some knowledge rather offending me.You are not demonstrating anything good anyway.Have tolerence?if know then keep yourself quiete.


@Cindy:What i said that majority of people dont have a shitty idea about pedophilia and about medical cycle of woman and they start making issues by picking instances.

@Alina:go your momam is calling you and thanks for being ignorant towards me:)


@SAywhat: you asked:


But really, would you marry someone who would say yes without ever questioning the consequences.


Offcourse not and if oytu read above i already said that u cant mary a woman regardless of age unless she say YES.Show me a word in my previous post or anyone here where i said something like this


Sister Muslimah:Read gain What i said.First of All Ayesha was not forced and she was agreed to marry with Muhammad(SAW).Second nikah taken place at her ge of 6 while rukhasati happened at age of 9.Now would any of stupid freak herw would give some answer that why Ayeha waited for 3 years?

As i said it was not about Woman is asked or not,my post was all about when a woman is medically valid for a marriage.

In last DrPak.1)learn how to debat 2)do some homeword rather whining like girls 3)comeup with answers of the questions i asked above

and yea one more 4)comeup with documentary proof that Man of 2000 years back is Similar(ditto) according to medical point of view.Go and maek study and answer me.I will be waiting for your answer.

And remember if you still tried to offend me,i wont reply back and nutral readers,preciely educated and opened minded readers will figure out themselves how *well aware* you are about the topic.

Another lesson:you cant apply evert logic with religon or act of god.Jesus came in this world without any physical father.Show me your logic about This unusual birth.
 

I don't know, but age doesn't mean anything in marriage. Consent is what's important.


This is very unusual and absurd.according to this marriage with Quran is valid which commonly happens in certain villages of Pakistan.Does it mean you guys actually supporting pedophillia?

according to drpak theory and your statment.if a 4 yrs old girl say "yes" by toungue then one shud marry since she said "yes".Pretty bullshit for me.

Remember lady,unless a girl is not medically ableto marry.YOU cant force her to marry.You cant just single out "persmission factor" and ignoring her medical age.

Its like 2-level process.1)Medical validity 2)if "1" is fullfilled then 2)Her permission.

you cant apply #2 without fulfilling #1.
 
i dont need to because the article you linked was not something new for me.All i got that you were confused about that marriage.
For God's sake... you haven't even read the original post and yet here you are firing away at all cylinders. What exactly are you arguing about if you don't even know what it is I believe? Seriously, I'm literally shaking my head in amazement. To think that this is how a young, educated muslim thinks. No wonder there's growing Islamophobia in the world today. The west is justified to some extent at being disgusted at the likes of you.

I'm not going to argue with you, because it won't do any good.
 

yet here you are firing away at all cylinders


Not me,its you.read your first offensive and childish reply to me.


you don't even know what it is I believe?


not matter of what you believe.Its jut you are not aware of it.Your baseless rants about puberty and linking it up with a person's consent.


No wonder there's growing Islamophobia in the world today


It has nothng to do with Islam.I was simply answering the scnetific reasons to your respond to Me.Pls open your eyes and dont get afraid of Islam so much that you dont understand the basics.

Puberty has nothing to do with Islam or Christianity.You lack in basics of medicl science and its clear from your posts.


I'm not going to argue with you, because it won't do any good


Good decision.You saved yourself from a public humiliation.I hope you wont remove any of posts(including mine and yours).Let the others read and analyze themselves.BTW i am not surprised that you woudnt comeup with answers since you coudnt comeup with those basic points in the beginning.

And last but nto least.My latest comments were reply of your answer to my orignal posts.No matter what u actually made at first place.Your response about medical facts was pretty absurd.May God saves several ppl in your surroundings from your _medical skills_
 
BTW about your orignal post,this is al you said:


In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.


you re actually trying to be pigeon by closing eyes and stating that "this didn't happen".Just coz yu are afraid that "others will make fun that Prophet married a kid",in short you didnt have any idea bout history as well medical science. Actually u suffered from fear and didnt seek the truth,Hence you came with conclusion that that marriage didnt happen white it actually happened,Why it happend i also mentioned ,"To spread Islam",that ignorant sobia didnt read that at all.There was NO child of Muhammad from Ayeshah and it was because there was no such phsyical relation between them(it was their mutual decision),go and make read about it.

what i said that if some "X" person marry a girl "Y" who is age 9 than it shouldnt be taken as something usual.Medical science says that any person who reaches to puberty is cable of marry.If she/he marries or not,its her will.Medical science doesnt prohbit it.

come out of fear and dont reject a religion or its part because u cant grasp it.T
 
Adnan, And you wonder why you have no friends..I'm guessing it's because you have a warped sense of humanity. And as for me being a kid ...um, I'm a lot more grown up than you. I'm married and have three kids. (Of which I don't plan to marry off when they are "valid" for sex" As a matter of fact your little "valid" statement sicks me out What's wrong with you?
 
@Sobia:Its more pitty sign that you re a *married* woman and you have offending me.Shame.This is what you have been teaching to your kids?


As far as referring one of my blog post.*Sigh*.It shows that how you comprehend things.Nowhere in my post i was complaining that i have *no* friends,was I?tht was all about that my closed friends re in touch via electronic mediums only not in person.Its irrelevent discussion but thankyou it helped me to figure out your mentality.

you physical age doesnt make you wise does it?

if this was the case then every elder on earth MUST be more wiser than his/her younger.Pls make some sense while making comments.


Khair,you dont seem a woman who would have studied science,specially biology but I wonder you as a Woman is not being able to understand about woman's body chemistry?I wonder you would have any answer about the points i rasied in my last post?

Pls dont curse me if your IQ is not greater than shoe size.Its not my fault.

For those who called me insane,mullah or suffering from Islamphobia[i really laughed at this islamphobia thingie since its used for our westerners who are afraid of Islam],they should visit this anti-islam website(http://www.answering-islam.org/Hoaxes/cartoonist_burned.html)

here you can find link to one of my post about cartoonist died issue.If I was some extreemist muslim then I would have forwared it first because i am not too emotional and knew that its rubbish.Thatswhy even an anti Islam is referring me.Its not tht i am showing off but yes it feels good that I was given chance to show a glimpse to oponents that Not all muslims are same(that is emotional fools).therefore,dont give chance to others to laugh at you.None of you can harm me at all.Infact your offensive attitude show that how weaker you guys are in grasping different things from surrounding.Keep cursing me it shows me many things about you.God bless you and may your children does NOT follow you.Ameen
 
Jazzak Allahu Khair for this. The entire primary article and the ensuing discussion are just phenomenal: well-written and well-researched. Thank God my Step 1 is over and I can actually read something non-Kaplan now, heh.

The scholar or ('Learner') did more than just make a point about Ayesha's (RA) marriage; he blew up any pretense to religious scholarship in today's age. Why hasn't this work been given greater circulation? More importantly where are the "giant scholars" of today and why are they not arguing with him? Clearly he's unbelievably open about taking the discussion further in a frank and honest manner (he's even admitted to not having the primary reference for one of his Tabari quotes! Who does that anymore?), so why is it that it's only Christians who are bothering to take him on?

Regardless, it is disconcerting to hear this. If we got something as textbook as this wrong, what else are we paying incorrect homage to? Allahu Alam, but I guess the point is to always keep an open mind. There is no priesthood in Islam for a reason.
 
BTW pseudo doctor,I must thank you to give reason to make a new post for my blog in future.To expose that how muslims have got frightened enough after 9/11 that they comeup with absurd reaons to hide their own weakness.
 
The scholar or ('Learner') did more than just make a point about Ayesha's (RA) marriage; he blew up any pretense to religious scholarship in today's age. Why hasn't this work been given greater circulation?

That's precisely how I feel myself. I've known of this site for a few years now and have read most of it's content, and certainly all the viewpoints that run counter to conventional dogma. I keep asking people if they've heard of Al-Mawrid. They are based in Lahore, and even my friends in Lahore have never heard of them.

Incidently, the senior-most scholar of Al-Mawrid is Javed Ahmad Ghamidi. Moiz Amjad is actually his student. Javed Ghaimdi frequently appears on TV shows these days, and I'm hoping this will bring greater attention to thier work.
 
Assalamu Aleikum wa Rahmatulahi wa Barakatuhu,

I just wanted to say that I said "It doesn't bother me because Aisha (RA) married the prophet (SAWS) willingly." So I knew that Aisha willingly married.

However, consent is all that is needed brother because "medical age" is irrelevant. What if you are mentally disabled? Physically you are "old enough" to marry let's say at 23 but mentally it is unclear if your consent is valid, therefore, you CANNOT get married.

Let's say you have a Down's Syndrome Muslimah, is her consent valid? At any age? At your theoratically medically valid age?

The argument for consent has rules.

You cannot give consent UNLESS you are a mature person-including PHYSICAL MATURITY.

And a girl of 4 years old (like you said) it is irrelevant if she says yes to a marriage because her testimony (which equals consent) is still not valid in Islamic law( which is how you would get married) anyway.

So, age of consent is the ONLY factor.

Firstly-Go figure out when a female has consent.

Secondly-When we figure it out, it must be appllied uniformly

Thirdly-The same goes for males. So if a male is "physically ready for marriage" at 13, let's say, then he must also have the responsiblilty to support his family, makes decisions regarding their Islamic upbringing, make decisions on maintaining a halal environment and household for his wife (and possible children) etc.

Also there are rules for a girls consent. She is supposed to be asked in private by her mahram (who is supposed to protect her interests, safety, happiness, etc) if she wants to marry. She is not to be asked in front of the suitor for fear of humiliation, etc.

My understanding is that some traditional Islamic countries don't do this. They marry their girls for THEIR best interests, not the girl's. Is this truly Islamic?

Think about when the prophet (SAWS) asked Fatima about which suitor she wanted to marry. Fatima (RA) said no to various suitors (who were more like her dad's age) and she finally agreed on marrying Ali (RA) because she actually liked him.

At what age was Fatima (RA) married? Khadijah (RA)?

Also, I would emphasize on given females their Islamic right across the board. If you marry a 12 year old girl, remember that she is not a girl now, you have given her the title of woman and with that comes responsibilities and privilege in Islam.

Oh, before I forget, she needs to understand what she wants to ask for in her marriage contract. If she can't do this, then she's probably too young.

Nobody is attacking you, brother adnan. I certainly am not attacking my Muslim brothers and sisters. I think that given the hundreds and thousands of original hadith, there has to be a consensus for certain requirements, etc. It does not go against the hadith to explore what the transmitters are saying in light of each other. Especially when we are talking about age which was never important in the Arabian peninsula.

Which brings me to another thing. Cultural differences are allowed in Islam. Although many "traditional Islamic countries" believe in marrying younger ladies to older men, in fact many countries do this, Islamic or not, it is still not a rule.

According to hadith, Khadijah(RA) was about 15 years older the the prophet(SAWS). Thsi is quoted very frequently. Making the prophet (SAWS) in his early 20s while she was almost 40 (when she started bearing the first of hs children). How many times do you see a 40 year old divoreced or widowed lady in our ummah that can ask to marry someone's singlee 24 year old son? Would you marry my good friend? She's divorced and in her 40s if you are in your 20s you would be following the "sunnah" to do this. But no, my friend can't even find 60 year old suitors becuase they are all looking for young unmarried women.

It goes both ways, brother. We don't have to focus on Aish (RA) let's look at Khadijah"s (RA) marriage.

Let's encourage young Muslim brothers to marry older Muslimas that are having a hard time marrying.

BTW, my husband is 3 years younger that I , Alhamdulillah. No problems her, Alhamdulillah.

This is not an attack, just some things to think about.
 
Seems like Adnan got pretty darn offended and defensive! Mr. Siddiqi YOU really need to calm down. Dr. Pak was posting a very interesting article and posing some good questions to ponder. No one is accusing anyone of being a pedophile here, just that marriage to a 9 yr old would fall in that catagory these days. Why are you so up in arms about when a girl is old enough to be married Adnan? Perhaps you have something to feel you need to defend?

Dr. Pak, again, good article! I think the MAJORITY of people reading it understood the basic message.

Adnan obviously didn't see the recent Datelines 'To Catch a Predator'.....it gives me chills how many men there are that think it's 'okay' to have sex with a minor---that's under the age of 18 Adnan. Most states that allow marriage under the age of 18 require a parent's consent.
 
1)How do you define a girl is able for marriage(or for sex)?how do you set standard.is there any medical book that girl MUST NOT get married before cerain age?

Adnan--if girl if sexually active before her body has matured there could be serious injury to her. If part of marriage is for procreation then it would make sense that this girl is physically and emotionally ready for marriage. I also have a strong medical education as well as being muslim....what are your medical credentials? I also have a daughter and pray she is never exposed to someone like you who thinks it's okay for a 9 yr old to be married in the 21st century! Ayesha's marriage was 1400 years ago!! There are only the words from those passed down and it could be said her age was taken out of context....sort of like you have done in all your responses. I don't think there are any Islamophobes here we all seem pretty strong in iman.

2)Why every state of most of US states doesnt have a SAME AGE restriction for sex(or marriage).Make a research on net and you will find that many of US states allow marriage at age of 16 while others allow 17 ot 18?why is that.Go and figure it out.

See my previous post.
 
It seems every one so much heated up that become blind enough to READ what actually I am talking about.This extreemism in attitude is pretty much despised by majority of people:

@muslimah: you said:


I just wanted to say that I said "It doesn't bother me because Aisha (RA) married the prophet (SAWS) willingly." So I knew that Aisha willingly married


Who denies that?did i ever give such impression but question is that do you muslims think that any action of Muhammad(sAW) at that time was illogical?

What if you are mentally disabled? Physically you are "old enough" to marry let's say at 23 but mentally it is unclear if your consent is valid, therefore, you CANNOT get married.



How come you link a _mentally disablled_ person with CONSENT itself.Read again,everyone including you are actually talking about *willingness*.Do you think that people who dont get agreed are mentally disablled?pretty absurd.

Everyone is after me because they have been living in a society where marriage often take place after age of 18/19.Offocurse it sounds weird if you talk about marrying at age of 9/10 but can any of you comeup with reference of my statment where i said that Girls should be married at age of 9/10 or in early ages?




If you marry a 12 year old girl, remember that she is not a girl now, you have given her the title of woman and with that comes responsibilities and privilege in Islam


Would you like to elaborate "Not a girl now"?I would like to learn the standard you would have used to comeup with a statment.What i understand you mean a female child has not reach to "adult" age?Thts what you mean.Even if yes that what criteria is used by you.

in our ancient times(200/300) years,Women used to get married at age of 14/15.It was quiete common at that time.What do you say about this?A menral disorder of our ancestors,society practises or what?

Most of you are being _extreemist_ towards me because you ppl are prisoner of your society.If the situation was reverse and i would have come statment like "women/men shud marry after age of 20" then still every one of you would go offensive towards me.Fanatcis are in every society,why do we curse "Mullah" only.Here everyone seems a *mullah* to me.

I dont care if someone insults me.Infact its pretty funny that blog owner and few commenter are being so childish towards me,attacking me personally to prove their absurd logics.This is not the way to argue in public forum.I forgive Dr.Pak on his ignorance.I know he hasnt asked my apology but in journey of life when he would experience many things,he would realize that he was wrong and was not able to grasp what was I going to say.I wouldnt be there with him thatswhy I am forgiving him right now. *grin*

Muslimah my request to read my orignal reply again and poonder twice to understand what actually was i talking about.



Seems like Adnan got pretty darn offended and defensive!

@Cindy:
if someone abuse you and talk crap about you,how would you react?Offcourse i prefer to be defensive with potty mouth people.It happens in every normal society.In bible Jesus(AS) says "Love your enemy"?ever read that?

Dr.Pak merely linked up few old articles and concluded that:


nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age


And I plainly disagree that.I am not agreeing with him with his statment on basis of few articles.I want to ask why he has difficulty to accept it?Is he afraid of his non-muslims friends who might be used to atack on him with this issue.It happened with me so many times and initially i got puzzled but I had a belief that every action of Muhammad(SAW) is far superior than ordinary man thinking and when i made research on that it stengthened my belief that Muhammad(SAW) didnt do anything unusual at His time.It might not be compatible with the society of His time but not pretty compatible with nature rules.



just that marriage to a 9 yr old would fall in that catagory these days. Why are you so up in arms about when a girl is old enough to be married Adnan? Perhaps you have something to feel you need to defend


Nothing to defend,if you are willing to make stories and link it up with then fine,it doesnt matter me at all.What all i had said that Muhammad(SAW)'s marriage with Ayesha at age of 9 actually happened and this unusual marrage due to Ayesha's age was not incompatible anyway.I just mentioned scientific reasons behind that.Thats it.I also gave reason why Ayesha was chosen.MUhammad(SAW) was already told via dream to Muhammad(SAW) that he would marry Ayesha.Dont compare Ayesha anyway with childern of our times.Not because it was "Holy marriage".It was ayesha was one of the genius brain of her time.At age of 14.She had learned several hundreds hadiths by heart and many hadiths are refered by Ayesha(RA).Several Shabis who were even elder than her used to come her to find solution of many problems.The genius Ayesha(RA) took a big part of spread Islam after death of Muhammad(SAW)


@cind you further said:


-if girl if sexually active before her body has matured


A girl is sexually active ONLY when she reaches to Puberty and reaching to puberty means her sex organs have got matured enough.Dont argue with me.either consult some doctor or make a research on Internet about "Puberty".Just dont negate me to satisfy your ego.

What you saying is if some "infant" is forced for sex which was not actually my point.

lets see what you say further *smile*




I also have a strong medical education as well as being muslim....what are your medical credentials


Intresting ,where did you graduate from?can you *enlighten* me that Pubery has NOTHING to do with girls medical age for marriage?I am not a Doctor by profession but yes i did have a science background.Just dont reject me because i am not a doctor.If you thnk you re good at your profession then refute me with proof.:).I would learn something new from you.



gives me chills how many men there are that think it's 'okay' to have sex with a minor---


you claimed to be a doctor,how do you define a *minor*?




it's okay for a 9 yr old to be married in the 21st century


Accusations dont make you something big lady.Dont put your words in my mouth and prove yourself an idiot.Read again!!!!Read what i mentioned in my post.you fanatics never use brains,do you?


Ayesha's marriage was 1400 years ago


So??tell me why Ayesha married at that age?


See my previous post.


I did,didnt find anything which refute my statment that age difference of marriage in US is due to different puberty age.

Between,read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia



Pedophilia, paedophilia, or pædophilia (see spelling differences), is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to pre-pubescent children. Persons with this attraction are called pedophiles.


And you know well that Muhammad(SAW) is called a pedophile dut to his marriage with Ayesha.

Dr.Pak was trying to refute this(his intentions was sincere no doubt about that) but he came up with examples and reasons which re not true and claimed that Ayesha was not 9 but maybe 14/15 or 18 at time of marriage.

While i also refute this pedophillia accusation of Muhammad but i gave scientific and logical reasons that why Muhammad(SAW) cant be declared as pedophile and puberty factor was the main reason behind that.

all of you should take a glass of water and make a research rather comeup with absurd reasons to refute such accusations.Believe me Dr.Pak you cant convince any non-muslim by such lame reasons.
 
It seems every one so much heated up that become blind enough to READ what actually I am talking about.This extreemism in attitude is pretty much despised by majority of people:

@muslimah: you said:


I just wanted to say that I said "It doesn't bother me because Aisha (RA) married the prophet (SAWS) willingly." So I knew that Aisha willingly married


Who denies that?did i ever give such impression but question is that do you muslims think that any action of Muhammad(sAW) at that time was illogical?

What if you are mentally disabled? Physically you are "old enough" to marry let's say at 23 but mentally it is unclear if your consent is valid, therefore, you CANNOT get married.



How come you link a _mentally disablled_ person with CONSENT itself.Read again,everyone including you are actually talking about *willingness*.Do you think that people who dont get agreed are mentally disablled?pretty absurd.

Everyone is after me because they have been living in a society where marriage often take place after age of 18/19.Offocurse it sounds weird if you talk about marrying at age of 9/10 but can any of you comeup with reference of my statment where i said that Girls should be married at age of 9/10 or in early ages?




If you marry a 12 year old girl, remember that she is not a girl now, you have given her the title of woman and with that comes responsibilities and privilege in Islam


Would you like to elaborate "Not a girl now"?I would like to learn the standard you would have used to comeup with a statment.What i understand you mean a female child has not reach to "adult" age?Thts what you mean.Even if yes that what criteria is used by you.

in our ancient times(200/300) years,Women used to get married at age of 14/15.It was quiete common at that time.What do you say about this?A menral disorder of our ancestors,society practises or what?

Most of you are being _extreemist_ towards me because you ppl are prisoner of your society.If the situation was reverse and i would have come statment like "women/men shud marry after age of 20" then still every one of you would go offensive towards me.Fanatcis are in every society,why do we curse "Mullah" only.Here everyone seems a *mullah* to me.

I dont care if someone insults me.Infact its pretty funny that blog owner and few commenter are being so childish towards me,attacking me personally to prove their absurd logics.This is not the way to argue in public forum.I forgive Dr.Pak on his ignorance.I know he hasnt asked my apology but in journey of life when he would experience many things,he would realize that he was wrong and was not able to grasp what was I going to say.I wouldnt be there with him thatswhy I am forgiving him right now. *grin*

Muslimah my request to read my orignal reply again and poonder twice to understand what actually was i talking about.



Seems like Adnan got pretty darn offended and defensive!

@Cindy:
if someone abuse you and talk crap about you,how would you react?Offcourse i prefer to be defensive with potty mouth people.It happens in every normal society.In bible Jesus(AS) says "Love your enemy"?ever read that?

Dr.Pak merely linked up few old articles and concluded that:


nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age


And I plainly disagree that.I am not agreeing with him with his statment on basis of few articles.I want to ask why he has difficulty to accept it?Is he afraid of his non-muslims friends who might be used to atack on him with this issue.It happened with me so many times and initially i got puzzled but I had a belief that every action of Muhammad(SAW) is far superior than ordinary man thinking and when i made research on that it stengthened my belief that Muhammad(SAW) didnt do anything unusual at His time.It might not be compatible with the society of His time but not pretty compatible with nature rules.



just that marriage to a 9 yr old would fall in that catagory these days. Why are you so up in arms about when a girl is old enough to be married Adnan? Perhaps you have something to feel you need to defend


Nothing to defend,if you are willing to make stories and link it up with then fine,it doesnt matter me at all.What all i had said that Muhammad(SAW)'s marriage with Ayesha at age of 9 actually happened and this unusual marrage due to Ayesha's age was not incompatible anyway.I just mentioned scientific reasons behind that.Thats it.I also gave reason why Ayesha was chosen.MUhammad(SAW) was already told via dream to Muhammad(SAW) that he would marry Ayesha.Dont compare Ayesha anyway with childern of our times.Not because it was "Holy marriage".It was ayesha was one of the genius brain of her time.At age of 14.She had learned several hundreds hadiths by heart and many hadiths are refered by Ayesha(RA).Several Shabis who were even elder than her used to come her to find solution of many problems.The genius Ayesha(RA) took a big part of spread Islam after death of Muhammad(SAW)


@cind you further said:


-if girl if sexually active before her body has matured


A girl is sexually active ONLY when she reaches to Puberty and reaching to puberty means her sex organs have got matured enough.Dont argue with me.either consult some doctor or make a research on Internet about "Puberty".Just dont negate me to satisfy your ego.

What you saying is if some "infant" is forced for sex which was not actually my point.

lets see what you say further *smile*




I also have a strong medical education as well as being muslim....what are your medical credentials


Intresting ,where did you graduate from?can you *enlighten* me that Pubery has NOTHING to do with girls medical age for marriage?I am not a Doctor by profession but yes i did have a science background.Just dont reject me because i am not a doctor.If you thnk you re good at your profession then refute me with proof.:).I would learn something new from you.



gives me chills how many men there are that think it's 'okay' to have sex with a minor---


you claimed to be a doctor,how do you define a *minor*?




it's okay for a 9 yr old to be married in the 21st century


Accusations dont make you something big lady.Dont put your words in my mouth and prove yourself an idiot.Read again!!!!Read what i mentioned in my post.you fanatics never use brains,do you?


Ayesha's marriage was 1400 years ago


So??tell me why Ayesha married at that age?


See my previous post.


I did,didnt find anything which refute my statment that age difference of marriage in US is due to different puberty age.

Between,read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia



Pedophilia, paedophilia, or pædophilia (see spelling differences), is the paraphilia of being sexually attracted primarily or exclusively to pre-pubescent children. Persons with this attraction are called pedophiles.


And you know well that Muhammad(SAW) is called a pedophile dut to his marriage with Ayesha.

Dr.Pak was trying to refute this(his intentions was sincere no doubt about that) but he came up with examples and reasons which re not true and claimed that Ayesha was not 9 but maybe 14/15 or 18 at time of marriage.

While i also refute this pedophillia accusation of Muhammad but i gave scientific and logical reasons that why Muhammad(SAW) cant be declared as pedophile and puberty factor was the main reason behind that.

all of you should take a glass of water and make a research rather comeup with absurd reasons to refute such accusations.Believe me Dr.Pak you cant convince any non-muslim by such lame reasons.
 
Adnan, you are a sick sick person. Nothing you say makes sense. Seriously, seek some help.
 
A girl is sexually active ONLY when she reaches to Puberty and reaching to puberty means her sex organs have got matured enough.Dont argue with me.either consult some doctor or make a research on Internet about "Puberty".Just dont negate me to satisfy your ego.

I am not a Doctor by profession but yes i did have a science background.Just dont reject me because i am not a doctor.If you thnk you re good at your profession then refute me with proof.:).I would learn something new from you.


So you looked up in the dictionary/wikipedia what the definition of puberty and pedophilia were? But not what the laws state they are? There have been proven CASES of serious injury to reproductive organs when a girl is in her teens YOU are the IDIOT to think otherwise……who the heck said I was a DOCTOR? NO one, not me, I SAID I have a medical education---it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m a doctor. For all you know I work in the gynecological/obstetrical field and have SEEN some of these injuries!! So just because a girl reaches puberty and starts her cycles does NOT mean her body is mature enough for the sexual side of marriage. Puberty means in the process of maturing. With sexual activity comes the risk of pregnancy and it has also been proven through many girls getting pregnant that serious injuries/complications can occur. And I was not saying Ayesha did not marry at 9 just that it was maybe more of a guardianship situation or not a normal marriage…..which I believe is what this article was suggesting—that we have these other questions and situations to consider so why are YOU being as close minded as you are?

Here is a case that involved some girls as young as 9….I will send you the link if you want it but chances are you are so narrow minded you wouldn’t read it anyways.

Dr. Catherine Hamlin has spent nearly 50 years of her career providing free reconstructive surgery to thousands of young African girls and women suffering from fistulas as a result of difficult childbirths. Fistulas are holes that develop in the tissue that separates the vagina from the bladder and/or rectum. They can occur in expectant mothers who have difficulty during labor due to small pelvises, or a poorly positioned fetus. In many developing countries, poverty prevents women from getting proper treatment. After a difficult childbirth, often times resulting in a stillborn delivery, these women go untreated and their fistulas cause them to be shunned by their husbands and families.


you claimed to be a doctor,how do you define a *minor*?

Didn’t claim to be a doctor, bozo, just educated in the medical field. A minor in the United States is anyone under the age of 18! Do you live here? If you do you are oblivious to these laws/facts. THAT is what I’m basing my “of age” on. THIS is also what the laws for pedophiles are based on in this country!

it's okay for a 9 yr old to be married in the 21st century


Accusations dont make you something big lady.Dont put your words in my mouth and prove yourself an idiot.Read again!!!!Read what i mentioned in my post.you fanatics never use brains,do you?

“Even if there would be then it was not going to be unscientific and unusual anyway,neither Muhammad(SAW) could be declared as pedophile anyway because according to science a girl is considered *valid* for sex when she reaches to puberty.”


My God Adnan, did you even read a single word of Post?

”i dont need to because the article you linked was not something new for me.All i got that you were confused about that marriage.”
"what i said that if some "X" person marry a girl "Y" who is age 9 than it shouldnt be taken as something usual.Medical science says that any person who reaches to puberty is cable of marry.If she/he marries or not,its her will.Medical science doesnt prohbit it.”


Hmmmmmm now who’s the idiot? These were YOUR words in the quotations. If you read the original post then you read the article, DUH! I think you read as far as Ayesha couldn’t have been 9 when she married and quit and decided to write your uneducated responses. Apparently you don’t use your brain and I highly doubt your level of education. Through this all I noticed that while I and others are disagreeing with you and explaining our stand on this, your manner is getting worse and worse….no one used foul language in here EXCEPT YOU! YOU are the fanatic extremist because you don’t want to entertain any other notion….fine, agree to disagree. If you are so educated and have all these answers I would like to see your PROVEN studies you have read. I base my comments on what can happen to a young girl/woman’s body on my experience in the real world, apparently a world YOU don’t choose to exist in. I’m agreeing to disagree with most of what you said. People who read this will see for themselves who were writing level headed responses and who is going off half cocked (YOU!). You said this yourself.
 
some very good points have been made from all parties but you cannot prove something with 100% certainty that happened so far back in history.there will always be a debate.

one way or the other Muhammad(SAW)is just as respectful to me as he(SAW)always has been.I dont care what happened or didnt happen back then.All religions are based on the believers blind faith,just follow the basics,have tolerance for everyones ideas and dont make this another shia sunni type of fight because there is no end to these arguments.
 
@Cindi:no trust my words and ignore where did I get this from.I alrerady asked you to consult your own source to verify my points,not putting my words in your mouth,unlike you ppl who are being idiot enough to link every of your pathetic statment with me.


@Sobia:go and play outside.You are not worthy to be argued.By offending me you cant prove yourself worthy enough.you will be ignored.Growup then we will argue.




to reproductive organs when a girl is in her teens YOU are the IDIOT to think otherwise


loosing ground?eh?started abusig me.

No i say again that you lack the knowledge of basics of women body chemistry.If this is the good medical knowledhe then what could be the worst?



So you looked up in the dictionary/wikipedia what the definition of puberty and pedophilia were? But not what the laws state they are


forget wiki,it was just a source like anyother.you are free to use your source to dispove me otherwise.
Which laws?



Didn’t claim to be a doctor, bozo, just educated in the medical field


you did claim you have BETTER knowledge then me,didnt you little girl?;).you would have studied medical but you have forgotten me and if you are talkig about medical knowledge in high school then i have doubt that it covers so many things in high school level.EVen if it does then i think you were not a good student;)


Hmmmmmm now who’s the idiot? These were YOUR words in the quotations.


no trick lady.read my last post again with your open eyes.I simpply rejected the absurd assumption of Dr.Pak that Ayesha wouldnt have married at age of 9.
I qoute Dr's words again:


nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age


read again and try to be educated enough and nice while arguing.if you cant argue nicely then i will shutup but do respect others.




People who read this will see for themselves who were writing level headed responses and who is going off half cocked (YOU!). You said this yourself.


Again putting your words in others mouth.Quit this typical yank styke,will you?I dont care you think yourself something nice.what all i know that by offending e you re proving yourself weak enough to 3rd person.Yeah keeep going;)
 

All religions are based on the believers blind faith


Dont compare Islam with other religions lile CHristianity etc where they comeup with absrud logic of Trinity and people blindly believe in it.Islam is not about beliving anything blindly.Allah said so many times in quran that "These are signs for wise people".This verse is enough to tel that Islam is just not to follow blindly.

Muslims dont have such absurd belief either that Jesus took away sins of all people.

Go thru the basic islamic sources(Quran and Hadith) so that you can have idea about it
 
Sobia i go threw your blog and discovered you are a convert.Am i right?if that is the case i am pretty disappointed because i had an impression that new muslims are better than born muslims since they got thru islamic sources first then believe in it but you proved it wrong.*sigh*.
 
Adnan, all the words in italics are not my own but those of Moiz Amjad, a highly respected and learned scholar affilicated with the Al-Mawrid institute of Islamic Sciences in Lahore. I quoted this article of his in its entirity and italisized the text to make it clear that it was a quote. So the words which you ascribe to me:

nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age

are actually the words of the scholar, not mine.

This would have been obvious if you took time to read the post carefully. I even linked the original article I quoted from as well as 6 additional discourses undertaken by Moiz Amjad on this subject.

You are harming no one but yourself by being so narrow-minded as to not even read the article you are objecting to with such fervor.

If you have nothing constructive to say, please don't post here again.
 
its your blog,not mine you can ban/delete my posts.It doesnt hurt me either but it doesnt hide offensive attitude showed by You and other commentors and I repeat,those who are being fanatic and cursing me here to show hide their intellectual level are not doing good either.My whole point was whatever happened in past was not unusual and it was according to nature and its still happening due to change of climate and othr attributes.

You woudnt condemn others who have been giving absurd theoris about medical science and offending me.Hypocrites eh?

Many Women here was being like "Oh my God he talks insane" with me,had no knowledge wht i was actually talking about,screwing medical knowledge to prove themself right.Offcouse such married and learned american woman sould come out on road to protest again this(http://edition.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/15/teen.marriage.ap.ap/index.html)

which happening in US and ask them why are they doing this.

Let the other decide whats constructive or not,you as an owner cant put your words in othes mouths.

if you want to delete posts sure do it,it would rather leave a bad impression to yor readers.Calling me narrow-minded,hehe look who is talking.Do you think you are capable enough to prove where i showed narrow-mindness.Just dont be a girl to accuse me please,will ya?
 
Adnan, The only one who is being abusive here is you. This is what you have been saying. The following are quotes from your comments:

DrPak:calm down kid.It seems you have learnt nothing in your medical college.

all of you are igorant souls.

Do show your _education skills_ in your next post.I would love to hear ya;)

@Cindy:What i said that majority of people dont have a shitty idea about pedophilia

@Alina:go your momam is calling you and thanks for being ignorant towards me:)

In last DrPak.1)learn how to debat 2)do some homeword rather whining like girls

toungue then one shud marry since she said "yes".Pretty bullshit for me.

Pls dont curse me if your IQ is not greater than shoe size.Its not my fault.

Dont put your words in my mouth and prove yourself an idiot.

unlike you ppl who are being idiot enough to link every of your pathetic statment with me.

Despite all this, you still feel the need to state:

It doesnt hurt me either but it doesnt hide offensive attitude showed by You and other commentors

Now let me make another thing clear. You write:

I simpply rejected the absurd assumption of Dr.Pak that Ayesha wouldnt have married at age of 9.
I qoute Dr's words again:
”nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age”


These words are not mine, they are part of the article written by Moiz Amjad, a highly respected scholar of the Al-Mawrid Institute of Islamic Sciences in Lahore. This sentence that you quoted is the culmination of an article that he wrote where he provided 12 different reasons of why he reached this conclusion. It was this article that I reproduced in my original post. I have provided a link to this article in case you want to read it at its source. Read the article carefully to see why it is that this esteemed scholar believes Ayesha (ra) did not get married so young. He has provided good evidence to challenge conventional opinion on the matter.

Also note that none of the 12 points that Moiz Amjad raise have ANYTHING to do with the age of puberty or the age for when a girl becomes "valid" for marriage. On the contrary, his arguments are limited entirely to an objective analysis of hadeeth and the chain of narrators of those hadeeth. He has never presented as evidence that Ayesha was too young to get married on a matter of medical principle. The medical angle is one that you have introduced.

This will be my last word on this matter, so I'll conclude with your own words:

read again and try to be educated enough and nice while arguing.if you cant argue nicely then i will shutup but do respect others.
 
well said doc.

adnan no one ws trying to insult u,u got pretty abusive for no reason.even if ur argument has any weight u wont convince much ppl with this kind of speech.but enough has been said here i think its best if everyone just shuts up now and get on with ur lives.i m sure all of u hv more important things to do.
 
Rai,i never said that i did not discuss something OT.Infact the first post i made i was not expect such harshful response from the blog owner.

Best of luck in eploring Islam:)


these were my wishes to the blog owner,clear enough i had no intention to insult him but how did it come to me if that is something good in your society and in your community then you are free to practise it.He is allowed to disagree with me on every point but saying things that i am "narrow minded" ,sick,less eduacated and claim,narrow minded mullah etc etc.The femael commentors calling me sick and fond of having sex with kids.What all these Rai?The guy claimed himself a well educated and open minded,same was done by ladies of the channel.Dr is blind enough for himself that he sees he is right but rest or not.The only sensible person was "Muslimah" only though she didnt agree me,i respect tht but she was not being out of control like others.

Anyway, i say again,i dont say i discussed 100% on topic,my sincerest intention was to comeup with a point according to which the marriage was not unusual in ancient and modern world.Thts it.Thata all the mistake i had done but seems that was way *too much* to grasp for the people and i regret i made mistake to realise the mentality of this blog readers.Hope you guys will getrid of hypocricy and will condemn bad things of every one rather of individuals who disagree with you.Dear Rai be neutral enough and go thru wht others said to me rather tring to single out me.I dont find any difference in attitude of the extreemist mullahs and people here.Both just try to impose their laws upon others and if one doesnt agree they start issuing *fatwa* againt them.

Have fun
 
Happy days.
Smiles so bright.
 
woa long read for my eyes. Must say most of it went to waste.
On the original post Paki man thank you for relieveing me of this burden on my mind that has been there for years. Thank you for the post.
Adnan chill out. sit back and relax yar. No one is after anyone here. you have a right to your opinion same as DrPak and all the rest have to theirs. No one can force anything to the other.
So guys take a chill pill.
Ozz yar lagta hai hum log thund karatay he reh jain gay.
 
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Recent med school graduate from Peshawar, Pakistan. Started blogging when in throes of final year exams. Currently studying for USMLE Step 1. Aiming for the 2008 Match. I blog about my studies, my worries, and my thoughts on life. I live in Islamabad.

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